Playwright's Podcast: Transcript of Series 6 Episode 4 - Caro Black Tam talks to Omar Elerian

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This is the transcript of the recorded conversation between Caro Black Tam (CBT) and Omar Elerian (OE), recorded for Series 6 of the Royal Court Playwright’s Podcast. This conversation was recorded in March 2022. The following content may contain strong language. 

SERIES INTRO

OE Welcome to series 6 of the Playwrights Podcast with me, Omar Elerian. This series will have a special focus on the international writers the Royal Court theatre works with. 

WRITER INTRO

OE Caro is a Bachelor of Psychology with experience in social research in public policies. They have worked in the formulation, development and monitoring of social investment projects, as well as in the publication of academic studies and a complementary training in neuroscience. As a playwright, their plays include “Asfixia” and “Tomás”. Their television work includes writing programs on health, lifestyle and gastronomy. They have been a resident at the Royal Court’s International Playwrights’ Programme and have taken part in their Long-Form Writing Group. Currently, they work as a Strategic Planner at Wunderman Thompson. They spend lots of time taking photos. 

CONVERSATION

OE Hello, Caro. It’s lovely to have you with us on this podcast today. 

CBT Thank you for having me, Omar. 

OE The question I always ask as we begin is where are you in the world? And what do you see outside your window today? 

CBT I am currently in Lima, Peru. And I live in San Bartolo, which is southern beach in Lima. I can see the ocean. It’s a little bit cloudy. And a couple of seagulls over there. It’s nice to look at. 

OE Sounds amazing. And is that home? Is that where you grew up? 

CBT Actually, I moved here a year ago. I have moved a lot around Lima. But I have a lot of memories from every place I’ve been living in so far. Almost 14 places.  It’s a lot. 

OE And so let’s start with the first question of many, but probably the one that gets us to the beginning… Why theatre? Amongst all the mediums, how did you land into theatre as your medium of choice, even though as we will speak about later, you are also an artist that works across other mediums? But I’m intrigued to know what you find peculiar about theatre making? 

CBT What I like about theatre, in particular as media and as a language, is that I found that this the way I understand the world because it has a lot of visual components to it. The human component of it I’m also attracted to, and I have a special connection with writing itself. So this is my approach to the world itself. I understand things slowly, within a process, and I like to find some images to understand it better. So, theatre makes a lot of sense to me right now as a language. 

OE And how did theatre come into your life? 

CBT By accident? 

OE It’s always by accident isn’t it? 

CBT Yeah, so I was working for the state, I was working in public policies in education. And it was really challenging in that time because there was a lot of corruption in the state. Well, it is still, but I was dealing with a lot of complex decisions… And they opened a free workshop in playwriting. So I signed up. And I was fascinated by the way you could present some human tensions in a way that is compelling and talking to specific people, representing people and seeking for that truth. I was in extremes, almost. In the state I was living in, what I love about that time is that I had to make a decision between two extreme ways of thinking, you know? So theatre was like a way to survive that storm. 

OE And have you left that job? Have you left that environment? Or are you still navigating it? 

CBT I left it. I was super naive at the time so I thought I could live from art here. And it is really difficult to do that unless you have a career already. So right now I am in the advertising world. I’m a Strategic Planner there. 

OE So where do you put theatre and playwriting in your patch of things that you do? 

CBT It has some essential place in my life. I’m always doing a lot of things at the same time, but theatre, I think, is one of the central parts of it. 

OE And tell me a bit more about the role of theatre in Peru? How does it work there? You said it’s difficult to make a living as an artist, which I think it’s common in many other places in the world, of course, but I’m interested specifically in the place where you live? Also, because you’ve had the chance to make some work for the Royal Court and in Britain where playwriting is such a big thing. And writing itself is considered a profession. And theatre is considered an industry. But I think it’s always interesting to compare different theatre cultures and the modes of production. How they might be different and how they might yield different plays, different results. 

CBT Yeah. I think that here there have been a lot of initiatives to promote and develop young writers. The industry actually is more focused on directing, I think. There are not a lot of initiatives that focus only on writing or developing a writer’s voice. I think there should be a lot of more initiatives. Especially for unprivileged people. Because we don’t have a lot of spaces to do that. 

OE And how’s the theatre world there? What kind of plays get put on? Are there a lot of new plays? Or is it more directors’ theatre based on classics? 

CBT Actually there is a lot of theatre made by authors from other places. Also classics. And the room for emergent theatre makers are maybe, since the pandemic, maybe, virtual and not in large theatre companies. There is a lot of collaboration but it’s hard to enter those circles if you’re not part of the industry or part of educational institutions. 

OE And is there a more popular theatre or more specific popular theatre tradition? 

CBT There is. You have, for example, Yuyachkani, which is an internationally known company from Peru that has a really good base on political theatre. 

OE And does it affect the political landscape in any way? Or is theatre considered a medium through which people can have meaningful political conversations? 

CBT Yes, I think so. Maybe not as much as I would like, or maybe that people can afford to, but in a lot of senses theatre people are raising their voices for some political or economical crises here because we have a lot of them! We live in a very convulsed country right now. 

OE And do you feel playwriting or theatre in some way is able to capture that? 

CBT In some ways yes. Especially independent groups, independent collectives. I think that there’s a fire there. 

OE I mean, I’ve spoken with another playwright, Pablo Manzi, who is from Chile. I also have a number of friends that live in different parts of South America and without generalising because South America, of course, is a continent… But in your experience, having worked a bit at the Royal Court, is there a difference that you feel between the ways work is made in South America and in Europe? I guess I’m also interested in how work that is made from a specific lens or perspective is then translated into English for instance, or for Western European audience. 

CBT Yeah, actually that is happening right now. Because I’m writing a play with a kind of different approach, because you have to think about your audience. And considering that you’re writing for an audience that is not from your country, I think you are pushed to be a little more universal in your terms. In how we approach things. For example, right now I’m writing a play which focuses on my ancestors’ migration to Peru. So that that process of the ‘no place, no time’ thing, it’s a curiosity I have right now. And I love the approach of how the translation is being managed right now by the Royal Court because they made an effort to have translators with lived experiences similar to me as an author. We’re having Peruvian translator and a Chinese–heritage person too. So they can grab all those nuances within the text that might be helpful. 

OE And when you started researching this play is there’s something you discovered that was interesting to you about the movement of people to South America, or was it a more personal thing about your family? 

CBT It was more personal thing. I was researching Chinese migration to Peru, because it continues to be a thing. And also how integrated both cultures were here. And I also was wondering about the history of the masculinities of my family, something that I’ve never looked closely at in my life. Because my grandfather was an artist, and I didn’t have the chance to meet him, and he didn’t have the chance to develop as an artist, a visual artist, so I was intrigued by his history. And the reasons he wasn’t able to be a known artist, because he was very secretive about his life, too. 

OE Was that because of political reasons? Or a personal thing? 

CBT It was a personal thing. He had a rough life, he was almost… the term would be ‘sold’ from a Peruvian person to his father and mother. So it was an identity thing, I think, why he was so private about personal stuff. There were a lot of things that he, I think, that he didn’t know about himself. So that is what intrigues me the most. 

OE And is that a common process for you when you start writing? Where do you go to look for the story or subject of a play? 

CBT Can you repeat the question? 

OE Does the idea for writing a play, for instance, come from a curiosity, from a question you have or does it come from encountering a story or meeting a certain group of people?  I’m interested in understanding where your creative process starts with playwriting. 

CBT It starts with a personal urgency to find out what’s going on with me. For example, that story might seem disconnected with me right now but I am currently transitioning as a trans person so I found the construction of masculinities in my family really compelling. So that’s what I was aiming for with that play. And with others, I always start with this question that I don’t know really what it is, inside of me, but I look for images, I look for certain types of characteristics in the characters. I’m sorry… I’m ranting right now. But I try to focus on particular characteristics that resonate with me in the moment. 

OE It’s interesting because you spoke earlier about the audience and thinking about a wider audience for work that needs to be translated or presented abroad. But is that something that you have in mind when you start putting pen to paper?  An audience? Or not? 

CBT It is not a constant thought, but if it is a play that I know is going to be translated, I usually come across this decision where I don’t want it to be super local. For example, in this play there’s a place that I name in English as ‘the poop island’ or the ‘island of poop’. Because here in Peru we have something we call islas guaneras, which means islands that have a lot of bird poop. But we don’t call it that. So a local person could understand what I’m talking about, but maybe a broader audience can not relate to that. So I make it as universal as possible. Because there was a period here in Peru where I was learning there was a lot of slavery in in those islands. And maybe our ancestors, as Chinese Peruvian people, worked there. So there’s a point there that I was trying to make. 

OE And how about you as an audience member? What kind of theatre do you enjoy? 

CBT Independent theatre. Political theatre. Voices that come from diversity. 

OE And I can’t remember if you were in London for the Royal Court ‘Living Newspaper’ workshop, or if you had a residency or not? 

CBT I have never been to London. I am going in the next month, maybe? April, May? It depends on the visa response. 

OE Yes, one of the many obstacles. But why I was asking is that… which I know think maybe a question for when we meet again after you’ve been to London, but where are those spaces in which you can find independent voices? Or marginalised voices that don’t have necessarily huge platforms in the mainstream? Because I feel in London, for instance, there is a lot but at the same time, there is a moment in which a lot of discourse manages to get into the mainstream, but then it can quickly become institutionalised and co-opted. So I’m always interested in understanding or asking other artists how certain topics are experienced in other theatrical cultures or in other cultures in general. Whether it is race or gender. Because I feel like in London we feel we’re at the centre of this very anglophone debate, which has ripples across the globe because it’s quite a dominant culture. But what’s your experience in Peru about some of these debates? 

CBT I usually am looking for my community’s work. For example, I’m always trying to see what are my trans folks doing in theatre? I also like to travel to see independent theatre inside of Peru outside of Lima because it’s really centred here. I think it happens a lot with capitals and things. But yes, there is a mainstream theatre here. Maybe I look for specific artists, you know, that I know what kind of voice they have, and what urgencies. And they tend to be really political or they have incorporated some non–privileged people inside their working process. 

OE And I wanted to ask you also about your work in other mediums like photography, and whether there was any connection to the work? Does making theatre help you or affect the way in which you make photography or the other way around? 

CBT Both worlds complement each other, I think. Because like research itself, they have their own methodology and their own points of freedom. I think photography for me is waiting for the moment. And in theatre, you’re waiting for the words or the images to come up. So I think the process and the craft of it… In analogue photography for instance, I love the craft of it, and waiting for the image to develop. And there’s something about the material too, because it’s not the cheapest thing in the world to photograph on film. So you have to value the moment you’re shooting. 

OE Yes, there is a correspondence with theatre. It’s an interesting thing about photography because I think there is a full economic law that says, in theatre the technical advancement can never affect the amount of expense that you have, while in cinema or in photography, technical development, make the art cheaper. With theatre that is not applicable or at least not until now, because you still need people and you need the physical space to make it happen. So maybe that’s an interesting parallel about how the two things still need to be done by hand, in an artisan way. 

I’m interested in knowing what inspiration you have found lately? It’s doesn’t need to be theatre related at all, but I’m always I’m curious to know what you have found inspiring of late?

CBT Some writers, for example, right now I’m reading a Peruvian author, Gabriela Wiener, who is a great, great writer. She just published, recently, a book about her heritage. And she problematises the race topic, and I found it really interesting. I also have a lot of inspiration from photographers and designers, and also social researchers. I love the work of Jack Halberstam, who is a trans academic. And I found those perspectives really rich. For example, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Paul Preciado’s work? He is a trans academic and he has a lot to say about culture, and specifically queer experiences in the world and how we perceive and make politics with our bodies as trans persons. 

OE And what is the debate or activism like in Peru around queer identities? 

CBT We are ages behind the conversation. We have a lot of activism here. Actually, my partner is an activist. I am close to some movements. Feminist movements. But in political terms, we’re far from our goals. It’s really difficult to be an activist here. I think also in other places, but to make changes here I think it’s going to take a while. Especially with women’s rights and minority rights. We have a long path to walk. 

OE Do you have hope? 

CBT I try to. I’m trying to maintain a little bit of hope. But it is really difficult and I’m trying to make things that have an impact but you’re fighting with a huge monster. There’s a big legacy of corruption here in Peru. For example, right now they’re liberating the last dictator. So yeah, justice is not in our favourite right now. Or in favour of the victims of the dictatorship that took place in the 90s here. 

OE And with the pandemic being a moment in which we were all shut down and had to connect, do you feel that became a catalyst for conversations and for reaching outside? Or has it made it even worse, being tied to one place? 

CBT I think the pandemic redefined a lot of these decisions, at least for me. But I had the chance to be a part of the Long-Form Playwrights’ Programme at the Royal Court, and I was really thankful for it because it gave me a bit of light in all the confusion of the pandemic. In the industry here it was really difficult to overcome all the restrictions, and we’re still struggling, but having those opportunities virtually with those programmes was super beneficial. And also I was part of a residency here in Peru which took place virtually, so I think it opened a lot of opportunities but also highlighted the lack of opportunities we had as an industry too. 

OE And is there a sense of isolation? 

CBT Yes. I’m seeing the industry right now in Peru… I think we’re trying to survive. We felt a huge impact as artists. And also the perceived big companies are struggling too. So they are currently making decisions more in a commercial way to attract more audiences, broader audiences. Putting aside maybe, the hard subjects. Moving to humour, more light… 

OE Escapism and entertainment, sure. 

CBT So that is difficult to navigate. I usually write more dense stuff…  I don’t know, not humour. 

OE I understand what you mean about the specific political and historic concept, but this is something I’ve been confronting quite a lot recently about where is the balance in between the entertainment or, if you want, the opportunity to, as a collective, be in a place where you let go and exist collectively. It came not from theatres shutting down but more from clubs and festivals shutting down. Places where people would party and be together. And I think it’s interesting to see how in theatre there is a similar feeling at the moment of people wanting to be together. And I wonder whether that’s now an opportunity, to use that goodwill and want to have fun in order to do both things at the same time… do the entertainment but also be able to tackle the bigger themes. 

CBT Yes, that would be super fun to do. I think I’ll give it a shot. 

OE I wasn’t necessarily offering a suggestion! It was just an observation. I think, of course, everything can become spectacularised very quickly and then absorbed again by the machine of the industry but I’m interested in understanding where those little pockets are. I think John Berger, the writer, used to reference them as pockets of resistance. So not necessarily militant or organised, but slightly more fractured moments or experiences in which resistance to alienation can happen. 

One last question, which is a big question but let’s see where we go with it… What is the big burning question that you are grappling with at the moment? In your work, in your life or whatever you feel is important to you at the moment? 

CBT I think the broader question is, ‘Why?’ Why things happen? Why like that? Why to those bodies? I think it has to be more like, ‘Why do people make certain decisions?’ ‘What urgencies do they have to be living to make those decisions?’ And I don’t know… I think the human experience is so fascinating that I’m always kind of curious about what makes people, for example, leave home and start from zero like my ancestors did. And what I might do, because I am planning to leave my country, for reasons like rights, maybe to find a better place, better conditions to live in. But I think the main question is, ‘Why?’ And God, that curiosity leads me to a lot of unexpected places. 

OE And that ‘Why?’, have you encountered it more often as a personal or environmental set or reasons? Or a mixture of both? 

CBT A mixture of both. And you have a lot of answers in the context also. Your heritage, and a lot of things that that come trans–generationally, like poverty or some issues or traumas, you know? Some things that your background set at the get–go. 

OE Do you feel then the more you progress in a generation, the more baggage you need to deal with in terms of dealing with your choices or affecting your choices? 

CBT You have the chance to look at those. You have also the option of ignoring them or starting from another place, or having a different set of privileges that mean you don’t see them. But if you do, you may encounter a huge amount of knowledge that you can unravel. 

OE That’s great. 

And as a last thing… You’ve already touched upon it because you’ve mentioned a few names but I always ask for some recommendations at the end of the podcast, for me and I hope for the people who listening, because I think it’s always great to get fed with the things that people read or find inspiring. So you mentioned a couple of things, but I’m really interested in who the photographers are that that I should check out? 

CBT I’m gonna start with some writers. So I love the writing of Maggie Nelson, who is an American author. Also Gabriela Wiener is one of my favourite artists here in Peru, for example. I also love to follow on Instagram independent, analogue photographers. I don’t know if you know this author from Argentina… Romina…  Sorry, I’m super bad with names. 

OE You can look it up if you want! 

CBT Yeah, there’s another author from Argentina I love, called Romina Paola. She’s a writer and also a theatre maker, so I admire her a lot. 

And as I’m currently in the advertising industry, right now I’m looking for graphic designers and also photographers. I’m also really, really inspired by the coming out of Elliot Page. And him being super trans and proud of it at the Oscars. So I found a lot of inspiration there. You can have a lot of success being in a minority. Currently, that is really far from what I have learnt people like me can achieve. 

OE Yes, I understand. Is there an issue with visibility as well in Peru? 

CBT And representation. 

OE And does creating or being part of a wider international, queer, LGBTQ+ community help with that? Or does it just become a virtual space? 

CBT I’m sorry, can you repeat? 

OE Is the fact of being connected to the wider global movement of queer and LGBTQ+ artists and people, and seeing those advancements in representation, as you mentioned with Elliot Page and many others, is that a source of inspiration and relief? Or is it more difficult being in a country where you don’t see that representation? That reach? 

CBT Yeah, I think as a country we are really isolated from that representation. We are as queer people either portrayed as marginalised from those spaces, or made fun of. I think in my country it’s quite difficult to be on an artist, who is out. There are a lot of efforts to make LGBTQIA communities. But we are also looking outside. 

OE And just one last question about this because I think it’s really interesting about language. Because you’re a playwright so languages and words are your tool. 

It’s really interesting that in terms of gender and queerness, a lot of the language comes from English. And, you know, I live in Italy, I’m half Italian, half Palestinian. Studied in France. So a lot of the time I see the terminology being brought into different languages and different cultures. And sometimes I feel that can become an obstacle. Because all of a sudden it’s like, ‘Oh, we are importing something but without understanding where that language comes from.’ So I’m interested, for a writer like yourself, is that an opportunity or a limit? Is that a terrain where you can actually fight? Where part of the struggle exists in terms of the Spanish language, for instance? 

CBT I think there’s a huge opportunity to challenge language itself. Because for example, the word queer in English is, in some resistance spaces here, made Spanish. In terms of how it sounds. So for example queer in Spanish is not Q U E E R but C U I R. So you take it from how it sounds to make it in Spanish so you can have this word that represents not only Latin American queerness but also Peruvian queerness. And I love that about language because you can appropriate some words and make it a huge tool for political enhancement. For example, it doesn’t happen a lot in English but in Spanish you have gendered words. And it’s a form of resistance to use, instead of an O or an A, make them an E. So it can hold all genders within it. For example, instead of saying todas or todos, you can say todes, which is not in any dictionary, but it is a way of resistance and visibility for diversity. 

OE That’s really powerful. And I was thinking exactly about that because of course Italian and French have a similar issue with gendered words and objects, and pronouns and it works quite well in English because you don’t have that issue, but when you translate it to other languages you need to actually introduce new words into the vocabulary, and therefore it becomes a much more powerful act of revindicating a new word, a new space, rather than adapting a word to something that is now more visible or has evolved. So, I was really curious about those strategies. And then you see the language changing in that way… it might be in poetry or music or playwriting for instance. 

CBT Yeah. And I think at least in the activist world this is a huge thing because we have the chance to… How do you say it in English…  Incomodar? 

OE Accommodate? 

CBT Incomodar, like… 

OE Is incomodar more like, in terms of…  Hold on… 

CBT Maybe like, rough to heteronormativity… 

OE I don’t know the word in English…   I know what you mean though because it sounds like something I would say in Italian.  

CBT Almost to make it more inconvenient to most people. 

OE To inconvene maybe, to invconvene… heteronormativity, that is what you were saying. That’s great. 

Caro it’s been such a pleasure to hear you. You have a such a calm, soothing presence and voice. And I could really see some of the pictures that I saw, and the work that you do in your presence. It was really a pleasure to speak to you. And I’ll let you go back to the beautiful view of the ocean that you have behind you. And thank you. 

CBT Thank you so much for having me. It was really lovely speaking to you. 

SERIES OUTRO

OE Thanks for listening to the Royal Court Theatres Playwright’s Podcast, if you’d  to listen to more make sure you subscribe to get the next episode.  The Playwrights Podcast is brought to you by the Royal Court theatre, presented by me Omar Elerian, produced by Anoushka Warden and Emily Legg and with music by Kareem Samara.